The Steamboat Pilot & Today

ColoradoNative (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Ute indians lost their land in Steamboat. That was their holy land. What makes Israel's more important then theirs? I say nothing.

ColoradoNative (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

History of the Ute's in Steamboat.

They were here much longer than any of us. Pray for the UTES!

http://ghostdepot.com/rg/mainline/moffat...

424now (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I support civil behavior, which I have seen precious little of from either faciton.

suckerfreeforlife (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunterdog
Just how is it you rationalize living on stolen Native American land while condemning the Israelis for stealing land? Surely, their claim to that land, however weak you may think it is, is more legitimate than your claim to this land. You are the direct beneficiary of a genocidal campaign against the Indigenous population. Perhaps if the Ute engaged in violent Jihad to get their land back, you'd volunteer to remove yourself peacefully from the land that is rightfully theirs.

freshair (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here we go again! Firstly, your 'Native' Americans are nothing of the sort. They emigrated here from somewhere else also. Check out the kennewick remains and any recent archaeological finds of the past 2 decades. All testify to inward migrations of various peoples into the North American continent. Secondly, all you anti-religious and/or atheistic sneerers of people of Faith, remember this---however you want to define it, just as you cannot definitively prove the existence of a God(s), Super-Intelligence Life Form or Omnipotent Cosmic Universal Creator so also you can not disprove the possibility of such existing. The person of Real Intelligence never denies the possibility of anything beyond the scope of
their cognition.

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I've never understood the more virulent Christian bashing. As an agnostic, I have no dog in the fight. freshair is right: the pope can't prove there is; Michael Newdow can't prove there isn't. I don't see what the faithless have to gain by trashing the faithful (the Jimmy Swaggarts & Louis Farrakahns notwithstanding).

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A few choice passages from that "work of nonfiction":

Deuteronomy 2:25 "This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee."
(Sounds like terrorism to me.)
Deuteronomy 2:33-34 "And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."
(Kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out, eh?)
Deuteronomy 3:6 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."
(Genocide? Yep.)
Deuteronomy 7:2 "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
(This from an merciful deity?)
Joshua 6:21 "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
(That's what I call a scorched earth campaign.)
Joshua 8:26 "For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai."
(But god told him to do it. So that's okay.)

And more, and more, and more. Genocide and slaughter, even of innocents, on a massive scale. It's ridiculous in the extreme to use the Old Testament as the justification for a Jewish nation.

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

<a href="http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x40/herculanum/?action=view&current=WeSTAND.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x40/herculanum/WeSTAND.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 4:01 p.m.

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)

freshair (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Uh, mr. Jay-k, you can find examples of this in the scripture of every major religion, jewish, christian, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, sikh. That was then, this is now the year 2008, not 2006 BC or 600 AD. Judaism and Christianity have modernized and gone through various cycles of Reformation. The source of Religious strife and fanatic violence today is to be found within Islam. Islam has not undergone any Reformation and is essentially the same totalitarian ideology it has been from Day One. So whereas Judaism and Christianity have extended religious freedom and tolerance and civil rights in the countries where they are the majority, Islam has not . To be a religious minority under Islam means to exist as a Dhimmi, a second-class citizen with sharply curtailed rights of expression of worship and all matters of civil and criminal legality.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So Jay_k,
Give us the goods on who was there in the Holy Land back then since you have picked a few of your favorite passages from who knows which bible version.
Why don't you then explain how in the heck a small number of Jews in Israel were able to thwart the huge armies of Arabs surrounding them over the centuries in their desire to eliminate the jews.
You don't have to believe but you have to acknowledge some kind of amazing grace.
But I know, people like you just don't believe that Jews have any rites to a homeland even if there is evidence that they were the residents of the Holy Land in the Biblical era.
The archealogical evidence is against you.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why do you think W is so hated by the left? No President has supported Israel more than he.

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That he wears his religion on his sleeve doesn't engender the warm fuzzies, either.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Honesty sucks eh.

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 5:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Funny thing is that the Evangelicals really don't care about the Jews. Yes they want Israel to exist, only in as much as it must for the second coming of Christ as fortold in their holy book. Problem is, the Jews get slaughtered in this vesion of the fairytale...

Why would the paper publish this zealot tripe any how? If an Islamic Fundamentalist submitted a piece on the destruction of Israel and the US, would the paper publish it? Too much proselytizing in the commentary to make it worth a crap. Why couldn't they put forth a better secular argument for why our friends, the Israelis, have a historical right to exist in the region without bathing it in the blood of religious self-righteousness.

In my opinion these folks have done a disservice to the Israelis by confusing geographical history with the kind of religious garbage that turns off thinking people. The same could be said for the Jewish settlers that use their holy book to continually inflame the hatreds of the Palestinian people by erecting new enclaves in the occupied territories.

I would love to see peace in this region in my life time, but I seriously doubt that the way we are going to achieve it is with everybody looking for answers in their pet version of an ancient myth.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 5:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The great one has spoken.
Why don't you at least read the history concerning Balfour?
Palestinians? Spare me, the radical arab leaders used these castoways as political pawns. The Jews agreed to a 2 state solution in 1948 that would have given them much less land than today and the arabs attacked.
No one wants peace more than the Jews but not at the point of a sword.
The British created this problem.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Heres a good story that kind of illustrates what we are dealing with.
Make peace with this!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo...

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad.

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

YAHUDAH is here to stay

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

amen.

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Chazak Amenu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cu0T4jb5...

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hadleyburg_Press says:

"...Jewish settlers that use their holy book to continually inflame the hatreds of the Palestinian people by erecting new enclaves in the occupied territories."

DING DING DING DING DING! THIS IS AN AUTOMATED REPLY FROM JAZZSLAVE'S AUTOMATIC B.S. DETECTOR. Your recent post contains troll-like characteristics which resemble the rantings of Nazi sympathizers, Osama bin Laden, and college students who have snorted the malign ravings of Noam Chomsky & Ward Churchill.

To determine whether or not the Detector was set off in error, kindly reply to the following questions:

1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” in the first place, and only came to the Israelis as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, & Lebanon all joined forces and launched a war to “push the Jews into the sea”? Israel won & took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Arabs don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you see justice in the proposition that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live prosperously - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land & massive oil wealth live in their own s&*t?

2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own nation as early as 1948 had they accepted the UN partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians countries of their own - on land Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer killing his parents and asking for mercy since he is now an orphan?

3. Can name ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, participate in government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

4. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

5. Please explain why you are so concerned about “Palestinian hatred”, while their Arab compatriots possess 99% of the land in the region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource? Can’t their brother Muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are only willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Continued from previous post...

6. You wail about the inflammation of Palestinian hatred. Do you feel similar concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing, and slavery? What about women who are denied basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of their male relatives? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Do you find any of this more egregious or less egregious than “Palestinian” hatred?

7. Have you ever considered how much better off everyone would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: THEY WOULD ALL BE AT PEACE! And without a war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why do that when there are Jews to kill?

8. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to suicide themselves in order to commit murder? Do you recall Goldy Meir's famous remark (paraphrasing from memory) “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

Please note that this endorsement of Israel contains no religious justification. No “pet version of an ancient myth.” Your response to it, as a self-proclaimed “thinking person” will dictate whether or not the B.S. Detector needs to be re calibrated.

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My apologies to a great Leader: Golda.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jester1cp,
Beautiful!!!!

And jazzslave,
right on.

seeuski (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 7:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If Obama and Ron Paul have their way Israel is in trouble, and g-d forbid Slick Willy gets back in the Oral office.

Yes, having friends that are Christian and love the land of Israel is wonderful.

smoke (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 7:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Protacalls of the Eldars of Zion http://youtube.com/watch?v=7VZ7av9FWDM&a...

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

smoke:

Have a good time at your next G.E.D. reunion.

outsiderlookingin (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jazzslave an old time fireman once told me "The are no atheist's in a smokey hallway." someone else said about religion It couldn't Hurt.

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 8:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In one post smoke states"gandi and mlk need to be taught in school" in another he post a link to the most anti semitic hoax ever.Plus he misspelled protocol and elders wrong.What a tool.Hey "Smoke" why dont you go smoke another bowl!

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jazzslave,
I have been pro Israel for the better part of my life. Nothing there has changed. The one thing that I take issue with is illegal settlements not the legal ones. These are illegal under Israeli law. The justification for these settlements has always been a divine right. These zealots make up a very, very small minority of the overall Jewish poplution. They have also had terrorists among their ranks that kill innocent arabs. These folks do nothing to promote the peace that the majority of the Israeli population seek. Nor do I have any love for any palestinian or arab that takes up arms against Israel.
Thanks for the history lesson. It was so long ago that I was starting to forget. I remember it like it was yesterday, do you? Oh and by the way, please try to place me in with better company next time.

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 9:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

One more thing JS,
I sincerely appreciate your defense of Israel and your reaction to what you erroneously thought was an anti-semite post. If you knew me and my history, you would know just how absurd that would be. You did not offend me and I still respect you and your comments.

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

outsiderlookingin:

I'm not an atheist.

Hadleyburg_Press:

Actually, I interpreted your comments as more anti-Christian than anything else; and somewhat anti-Israel (not the same as anti-Semitic). You trash Christians whose support of Israel is rooted in scripture. You laud my support (presumably) because it isn't.

I DID misinterpret which settlements you were talking about, and with all due respect, it's a red herring. Israel has been very harsh with what you yourself characterize as "very, very small minority of the overall Jewish poplution." To trot them out as justification for Arab medieval bloodlust suggests a moral equivalence to which the "Palestinians" are not entitled. One might just as well countenance shooting up a church congregation because Eric Rudolph is a Christian.

If the Jewish extremists were to magically disappear tomorrow, nothing would change, and the Arab/Muslim/”Palestinian” barbarism would continue unabated.

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 10:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jazzslave,
You and I agree and I apologize if my initial post was lazy and ambiguous. And no, I am not anti-christian nor anti-religious. I merely suggest that most things done in the name of religion carry us further away from God. Specifically dogmatic zealotry. Atleast that has been my personal experience and belief. Perhaps your experiences are different and for this I am greatful.

outsiderlookingin (anonymous)
February 6, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jazzslave my bad I had to google agnostic to see the difference. See you learn something new everyday it was worth getting out of bed .

andymanout (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 12:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Mary and Joseph! I have to say, the religious banter thrown about here is somewhat reminiscent of many a late night I spent in college. What I learned from all those sessions was this.

No individual or group has the right to insist any beliefs are the only possibly correct version of the truth. I can tell you what I believe and you can take it or leave it. The same goes for you.

Here in the U.S.A. everyone has the right to believe as they wish. As long as no harm is done, you can practice your beliefs. Here we not only allow it. We encourage it. This is not the case in far to many a nation. Here we let you live.

Faith is a choice every individual must make for themselves. It is not your faith if it is forced upon you.

I could not voice this opinion in downtown Baghdad in 2000 without fear of reprisals. The same could be said for places in Syria, Egypt, Iran,... This is true in many far away places that unfortunately most Americans will never see. Here its a right there its a liability. That lack of experience leaves room for doubt. Where theres doubt theres speculation. From that point on its a guessing game.

Jazz Slave

Ever since I learned about the six day war, I've been rooting for Israel. What the heck? I like the underdog. Especially when it's a badass underdog!

I picked the Giants too ;-)

knowitall (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 6:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There is no such thing as Palestine. GO ISRAEL!!!

bloggyblog (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

blog thinks everyone should spend some time today outside praying to the god of POW!!

Faith (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The word Bible is Greek for biblia, which means books. The Bible is comprised of 66 books written by 40+ authors over 1,600+ years. There are 24,000 manuscripts to authenticate the Bible. The Samaritan Pentateuch manuscripts contain every single word in the Hebrew Torah. Both are by rival peoples, but both accept their authenticity as the five books of Moses or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Dead Sea Scrolls validate many books and are some of the oldest preserved manuscripts in the world. Fact or fiction – you decide.

Archaeologists will not find whole Bibles from earlier times because when the scribes finished copying the books they counted and verified every single letter. Once confirmed as an exact replica, the original manuscript was destroyed.

There are numerous versions of the Bible which make reading easier; but each stays true to the original text. 90% of the world has the complete Bible in its own language. The gospel of Mark is the most widely translated book in over 880 languages – 97% of the world languages. These books are applicable as texts for history because over the 1,600 + years it took the authors to write them, they are all in perfect harmony with each other. The Bible is the most widely read, translated, and distributed book ever. Fact or fiction – you decide.

As a Christian who highly esteems the Jewish faith, I would never force my beliefs or religion upon anyone. I am not a perfect person; I am just forgiven by our creator because I believe in Jesus. Not all of my friends believe as I do, yet I love them anyway. I once told a friend I have found the perfect pair of jeans that fit me and make my butt appear smaller, so I am going to tell you about them, where I got them, and how much they cost. It is up to you to try them on. I love the passion that spirituality evokes in all of us. I believe it is that way because we have an innate sense to worship a higher power. It is in all of us; what we do with it is up to all of us. I mean no disrespect to those who do not believe in what I believe, but the Bible is an authentic document. With a little faith I have experienced a life change in myself and my family. No one can prove 100% there is a God, but my life is a testimony for the joy and contentment He gives me when times are hard. I believe. My God has worked miracles in my life. Is it so wrong to believe in a God that restores faith and life even if I can’t prove it? The Old Testament has many stories I do not understand, but I am not meant to be as smart as my God. I would not want to worship A god that was my equal. My God is sovereign, so I must wait till Heaven to understand many things I do not know now. Its OK – its Faith. The wind blows and I cannot see it yet it is there – I feel it. God exists and I cannot see Him, yet He is here – I feel it. Faith is not a bad thing….

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter, you are in need of a lesson in human history. Most wars are not caused by 'religion' but what has been a basic human desire and need since Day One of man's appearance on Earth. People organize into groups then tribes then nations and when they reach a certain mass of population they require more territory to sustain their community, or in the case of nomadic groups they have used up all the material needed to feed themselves and their livestock.All the great early empires of antiquity, Greece, Egypt, Persia, China, Rome waged wars of conquest for the wealth and power that it brought, not for any 'religious' reasons. The Mongolians of Genghis Khan and his sons and grandsons are estimated to have killed more people through their conquests than any other up until the wars of the 20th century. The Mongolians were a nomadic empire and they waged wars and massacred millions because that's what nomadic nations did, not because of any religious imperative.

Outside of the Crusades and the spread of Islam, very few wars can be attributed to Religion. Most have been caused by greed and coveting what the folks across the next valley or river possess.

suckerfreeforlife (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunterdog
Yes, every one of us lives on stolen land.

freshair's creative spin on the history of this land, even if true, does not change the fact that this land was occupied, and we stole it amidst a campaign of genocide.

You dont need to feel guilty about it (i dont, but im not proud of it), you just need to admit its true and be consistent. If the Ute were to bomb the gondola maze on a powder day, or one of the free concerts in the summer, would you simply ask, "Well, how would you feel if your land was stolen" Assuming, of course, you were still around to ask anything at all.

Before you get too defensive, you should know that i agree with most of the content of most of your posts. I just thought this needed clarification.

Jazzslave

Your post is a thing of beauty. Excellent work.

ColoradoNative (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pray for Israel? What about our boys who were sent there to defend the holy land?

If you recall Saddam was launching scuds at Israel and it was Israel who so graciously held off restraint. Instead America got sucked into their war. We're still dieing for it and still paying for it and we can't even afford it.

I have no problem with Israel's desire to exist. It's the same with any nation or culture.

It's all but determined that there is going to be a "Great war" and the "chosen ones" will end up in Heaven right?

Sorry I don't see the destruction of the world for a chosen few worth praying for.

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunterdog:

Do you suppose Hillary will resume her dialogue with Eleanor Roosevelt if she moves back into the white house?

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

sucker, my account of the history of the settlement of North America is no 'creative' spin. It is backed up by solid fossil and archaeological finds and is accepted by most academic and archaeological specialists. You obviously have a computer and with it access to all the data. Use it!

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter, I accept your backfilling on 'Religious' wars as opposed to the great majority of armed conflicts. Religion certainly has its negative aspects but it has also contributed many positive aspects to the civilization of humankind. To single it out as the Great Satan is a sign that you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by the anti-Religious cult. These people are mainly opposed to the Morality of Conduct which religion teaches. If you're homosexual or believe all drugs should be legal or believe abortion is ok under any circumstance or ultimately believe that all behavior is a matter of personal Choice and no business of any Government, then you see the source of all this 'imposed' morality, Religion, as a big negative to the the enjoyment of Life. So as there are many, many people in today's society who are for legalizing everything, all their attention and effort is mobilized against the force that is making their life more difficult than they want it to be------Religion.

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter, you've got to give the full context behind the story. In Gen. 19:30-38, Lot's daughters incorrectly believed they were the only people to have survived the devastation . They assumed it was their responsibility to bear children and enable the continuation of the human race. That's an whole different can of beans than the part you chose to highlight.

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 12:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter, you're taking an extraordinary morality-based stand there for someone who is so staunchly anti-Religious. Interesting position you've staked out--- Morality over survival of the Human Race.

bloggyblog (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 12:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

theres a scene in the movie "munich" where Avner(the dedicated leader of the israeli hit squad) has a chance encounter with the leader of the palestinian hit squad. the ensuing conversation is both intense and poignant and leads to Avner's eventual unraveling. what he learns is that there really is not that big of a difference between the two, they both want essentially the same thing, simply put, a safe place to call home.

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 1:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bloggy, yeah, a real touching 'moral equivalency' highlight. Only problem is, it never happened in Real Life and was a figment of the imagination of the notoriously anti-Israeli, pro-palestinian writer and playwright, Tony Kushner who wrote the film. And now you know the Real Story.

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

freshair- "however you want to define it, just as you cannot definitively prove the existence of a God(s), Super-Intelligence Life Form or Omnipotent Cosmic Universal Creator so also you can not disprove the possibility of such existing"
Two words: Russell's teapot. We can't disprove a negative, but we can assign variables of probability. The probability of a god existing is infinitesimal.

"Judaism and Christianity have extended religious freedom and tolerance and civil rights"
Only when forced to do so by atheistic (or, at most, agnostic or deistic) political leaders. Historically speaking, religions have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into not promulgating wars with each other. And I'm well aware of what's wrong with Islam and what living there is like. There's no need to point out how horrible it is.

seeuski- "people like you just don't believe that Jews have any rites[sic] to a homeland" People like me? Re-read my post. On second thought, considering your apparently dismal cognitive function, I'll save you the trouble and quote myself: "It's ridiculous in the extreme to use the Old Testament as the justification for a Jewish nation." I didn't say that the Hebrew people shouldn't live there. I said using the OT to justify it is somewhat ignorant, considering the OT is a litany of horrors inflicted *by* the Jewish people on the previous inhabitants. There are better arguments for Israel's existence than an appeal to ancient myth. As for how Joshua and company slaughtered so many of them, assuming the OT is historically accurate, I imagine the first verse I posted would've helped out. As anyone who's been in the military (such as myself) can attest, morale is an integral part of a unit's effectiveness. As word reached each of the city-states of the bloodthirsty invaders' approach, panic would've done half their job for them. No god required. And incidently, I was using the King James Version.

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Faith- You are perfectly entitled to go through life believing in your god. If you require an invisible friend to face the truth of Nature's supreme indifference to humanity, I'll not kick the crutch out from under you. As for your argument for the Bible's veracity, see Hunterdog's post.

freshair- As Hunterdog noted, what an incredibly ignorant post of yours. Your misrepresentation of nonChristians is a prime example of a strawman argument. If you want to see morality outside any so-called holy texts, take a look here: http://www.secularhumanism.org

In any event, as seeuski has pointed out, this is 2008. Israel exists now, regardless of why. We need to move forward with diplomacy and intelligence, not try to shoehorn the modern world into old superstitions.

freshair (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 3:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

'Two words: Russell's teapot. We can't disprove a negative, but we can assign variables of probability. The probability of a god existing is infinitesimal.'

And here are two words for you 'Freshair's coffeepot'. You can play all the word-games you want, negatives, double-negatives, double-double negatives but the fact remains, and read this very slowly and try to remember, that which cannot be olbjectively proven cannot be objectively dis-proven.

There's a saying in Buddhism, 'the wise man knows he doesn't know.' Try and keep that in mind.

grannyrett (anonymous)
February 7, 2008 at 10:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Good gosh guys! They are just asking for prayers for Jerusalem. If you want to add your prayers to theirs, do it, and if you don't want to, don't. It's that simple. They aren't trying to convert you or push their beliefs off on anybody. Jerusalem is always in my prayers as are all the other troubled spots in this world.

freshair (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 7:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jay-k, you do have a problem with reading Comprehension, don't you? If your ability to understand the English Language was up to the requirements necessary to engage in an intelligent discussion of this topic, it would already have been clear to you that the sum of my opinion is not that I believe in any God but that, outside of faith-based belief, there exists no objective evidence to support belief or non-belief.

freshair (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter-dog, so please offer up your proof. Remember to cite the vastness of the known and unknown universe, comprising untold numbers of galaxies, containing untold numbers of suns, containing untold numbers of planets and explain to all of us who are not as smart as you the proof you possess that definitively rules out any basis for assuming the existence of a Superior Source of Cosmic Creation.

bloggyblog (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

yesterday blog was leaving the post office, carrying a heavy package, trying to cross 3'rd street. there was allott of traffic and things looked bleak when, low and behold, cars stopped in both directions to allow blog to cross the street. talk about irrefutable proof of a divine being!

freshair (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter, I've got a newsflash for you, you don't set the rules for what passes as incontrovertible proof based on your concept of 'logic.' I'm going to tell you one last time and hopefully it will penetrate that dense barrier you have adopted to shelter your entire bag of preconceptions. When the topic of discussion is the cosmos, the life upon it and the life which may or may not exist in other worlds, ordinary, everyday 'logic' which can be easily be put to practise when dealing with everyday situations and objects here on planet earth, is inapplicable. And as yet,there does not exist any mode of investigation which is sufficient to answer these age-old questions, there can be no definitive answer, no certainty, no finality.

To believe in the existence of a God, or Superior Intelligence, is taken on faith alone. And to deny the possibility of the existence of a God or Super Creative Intelligence, is also a faith-based position.

Clear your mind and rethink it. (:>)

suckerfreeforlife (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 12:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"There are 2 explanations to everything; scientific and spiritual. It's up to the individual which one to believe."

Yes, but its not up to the individual as to which one is an accurate reflection of the TRUTH. Anyone can believe anything they want, their belief has no bearing on reality.

Whatever happened to "Your entitled to your own opinion, your not entitled to your own facts"?

There used to be many explanations of this world, be it our location in the cosmos, disease, weather, etc. that were "spiritual". They have all been irrevocably debunked. This trend will continue.

ColoradoNative (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Please pray for the men and women being blown to bits in Iraq defending the holy land.

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunterdog,
You're pretty smart (and entertaining) for a damn ape!

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kielbasa,
How about this one using the "logic" of religion. If the holy books foretell of the future, then that means that all events are predetermined. Ergo, no free will except for that of God. And yet, the individual may have free will, but the destiny of larger events is predetermined. Therefore, regardless of our actions and those of our enemies, we are forever trapped in an unfolding play where the script only matters locally in so much as it effects our own personal potential salvation. So, what we do personally is really just a selfish act of eternal self-preservation.
Logically then, Judas had no choice but to turn Jesus in. Was he still saved for participating in God's predetermined play?

freshair (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why would any Omnipotent Creator want to enable the life forms on planet earth with any means to definitively identify his existence? Much more entertaining to observe the human creature as he continues to grapple with that unanswerable question, 'What's it all about, Alfie?'. To reveal all at this point in time would be utterly pointless and bring to an end that wonderfully entertaining Petri dish we know as planet Earth.

The strident denial of possibility of a Cosmic Creator, besides signalling an inability to think out-of-the-box, is also the
epitome of someone firmly trapped by conventional attitudes.

seven (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Who was Jewish?
Mary, Joseph,Jesus,Apostles,Disciples,Partiarchs, plus the Bible was written from the Torah by Jewish people.
Why support Israel?
G-d called Israel the apple of His eye.Said His name would be forever be in Jerusalem. Told Abramham, Issac and Jacob(Jewish) their seed would be blessed and that Israel would be theirs in a covenent thru G-d forever. G-d never breaks covenent. He promised he would bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.
Why is the Bible full of adultery,murders,killing of innocent children and liars?
The stories and parables are much like everyday life here today to prove no matter what you have done no matter how horrific ,anyone can be forgiven. G-d said all have sinned and fallen short.We are equally sinners. Paul was a murderer but later wrote most of the New Testament.
Is there proof G-d exists? The veil of blindness to G-d does not start to inch up until by free choice you have excepted Him into your heart and life. He said no one comes unto the Father without excepting the Son(Jesus). However Messiah(Jesus) has not been revealed to all yet. G-d reveals himself when it is divinely time to all. Thats why its important to allow others to worship or not worship in freedom. He works with all of us but not at the same cookie cutter pattern of understanding.
What proof is there locally G-d exists?
20 mile coal hired a contractor to dig a mine air shaft 1500 ft. down for miners to install fans. This was about 1-2 years ago. At the near bottom was 4 ft. snail shells from Noahs flood.
What proof is there anytime someone stomps Israel something happens?
The Steambot Pilot about 2-3 months ago had article about Washington,D.C. meeting at White house to give Israels land to Palestine. The meeting was Mon.,Tues.,Wed., by Thurs. morning one of the U.S. oil pipelines that carries approx. 20% of our oil busted. Check out national archives for yourself about what happens as soon as anyone does anything negative to Israel. It is easy to prove and follow.

jester1cp (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahyX1JXox...

andymanout (anonymous)
February 8, 2008 at 10:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Simply my opinion;

You can not posses a thing when your hands are made from dust. You existence is on loan. Take care,

I'll leave it at that.

JazzSlave (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 12:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Virgin Birth

Somehow, a solitary female shark in captivity has given birth: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...

Johnny Cochran is dead, so we can't blame him.

bloggyblog (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

blog was raised at a school where you had to study the bible. whenever blog questioned anything, such as ' this stories incomplete. where are all the missing pages?'. blog would get reprimanded, almost to the point of being ostracized. one of blogs 'kinder' instructors said it was simply a matter of faith. blog began to wonder if religion was a tool to help people evolve or a means to control and manipulate. so blog began to study more, learned about the egyptians, the ethiopians, the greeks and the far east. so many different powerful civilizations, all with different belief structures. it was mind-boggling. who was right? which god was the true god? years later blog was fortunate enough to sit with a Hopi elder who offered blog this piece of wisdom. religion is the instruction manual for man. all the different nations of the earth form the spokes of a great wheel. all the spokes must be in place for the wheel to be complete and in balance and 'white man seems to of lost their manual'.

seven (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You read the bible with out comprehending it. Noah didn't fit every specie on the Ark. G-d said two of every kind. So you bring on two dogs. The species is in the genetic code of those two dogs. There is no need to bring in every variation of birds , just the basic kinds of birds that will contain all the variations that will come out after the flood is over. Fish were not on the Ark. G-d destroyed all life on earth that had the breath of life. Fish don't breath air and they certainly had plenty of water. The quantity of water is not an issue. Read Genisis 1, 6-8. The earth had water under it and in the atmoshpere above it. In Genisis 7:11, G-d broke open the fountains of the deep and opened the windows of heaven. The weight of the earth above this large body of water squirted the water out. The subsidence of the earth into the parts occupied by water also created todays landscape. The surface area of the earth preflood was greater than the surface area below it. So as the earth collapsed into the void it had to fault and tilt creating mountain ranges and valleys. Look close at road cuts through the continental divide the layers of earth are standing on end. Those snails? There were clams with them too. Everyone was complete. Both halves and they were all closed. If they died a natural death the mouths would have opened from decomposition and only the various halves would have been found. The Dead Sea scrolls support the Bible authenticity. The argument that flood stories as early as 1600 bc means the Bible copied from others is wrong. The Biblical flood was way before that.

There is free will. One needs to step back and look at things objectively and look hard at the things they are against and for. Otherwise one allows the twisted words of others to ensnare them. The Bible does make astounding statements, but with steady searching comes understanding. I'm not afraid to look at arguments for and against G-d and His Word. You give up free will when you close your eyes. Hunter, you are zealous for your position,I respect that, just be careful you are not some ones puppet.

twostroketerror (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 11:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

freshair (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bloggy, I'm afraid if your Hopi 'wise' man actually uttered the words 'all the spokes must be in place for the wheel to be complete and in balance and 'white man seems to of lost their manual', he was a 'wise' man in name only. Generalizations are the products of incomplete understanding. Using his method of analysis it could be said that American Indians have failed to adapt to modernity and that is the reason for their very high levels of alcohol and drug abuse, spousal abuse and the disintegration of their tribal cultures.

All belief systems, whatever they call themselves, whatever their ritual, all spring from the same source in human consciousness. The unique characteristics of each are a product of the distinct regions of the world where they first began. Learn to look deeper than superficial names and one day, hopefully, you will understand and recognize the Unity underlying all belief in a Greater Power.

seven (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Twostroke:
You are right. G-d did say to kill them all. In fact read all of chapter seven. Not only shall you kill them, but also destroy their altars, images and cut down their groves. Vs.25 "The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it on to thee, lest thou be ensnared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy G-d." The land they were entering was already promised to them many years before because G-d made a contract with Abraham for it and He also said Abraham's descendants (Israelites, the Jewish people)would posses it. Verse seven also proclaims their choseness. If the Jewish people had absorbed the culture already in the land it would have destroyed them. Worshipping gods that did not bring them out of Egypt would be denying their salvation from bondage in Egypt. Consider Numbers 22. Balaam couldn't curse the Jewish people like the king asked him to. Later on in Numbers 31:16 Balaam got the Israelis to destroy themselves by counseling the women of the land to invite the men of Israel to come to their parties and at their parties they worshipped false gods, they worshipped the creation instead of the Creator. You might be saying this is a bunch of hooey, but consider this. When you have an addiction it is a falso god you are enslaved to. You alter your world so you can drive by the cigar store to keep stocked up on cigarettes. You are willing to change your lifestyle because you are not willing to do without the nicotine or alcohol. It gets so bad you can't control it. It controls you and destroys you. You let your baby cry the night away in hunger pains because you spent your last dough on your next fix. It destoys you and the next generation (the baby). See how smokers break the addiction. Cold turkey is hard. So many stop smoking and start chewing tobacco. Then quit chewing to chew gum. Then sunflower seeds. Sometimes a worse addiction is picked up in place of smoking. Look at Matthew 12:43-45. Jesus cites a spiritual example of addictions. The important thing here is when you clean yourself (the house in Vs. 44) you must place G-d there to keep it clean. That spirit will come back with friends and you will be worse off. Any false god can be placed there, but only G-d can save you from the things you do,but hate, when you are under the false gods. When you accept Jesus into your life as Lord and Savior He will bring these addictions before you like Deuteronomy 7:22-26. Little by little you will destroy them. The addictions, the false gods, the things that destroy your life and the family around you. Don't leave one liquor bottle alive (a type of graven image spiritually speaking). You will stumble across it one day and there is a good chance to be sucked in again. Make no treaty with them, show no mercy.

freshair (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter, when it comes to pondering the mystery of creation and considering scenarios, you are presently splashing around the wading pool. Here's hoping someday you're ready for Deeper Water. (:>)

seven (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey Hunter! Come on down to the Deep end, the flood, I mean water, is just fine.
Using physical evidence outside the Bible to support statements in the Bible is not circular reasoning.

I understand your hesitation to discuss freewill. Please feel free to discuss it when ever you feel more comfortable.
Where did all that water go? Your looking at it. The earth was relatively flat pre-flood. There was no Mt. Everest, but note that sea shells and other marine life does exist in the rock formations on the Everest mountain range. Think of an egg. Now put another egg inside it with about an eight inch between the inner shell and outer shell and the void between the two shells occupied by water. Now fracture the outer shell. The outershell like the earth has to respond to gravity, it must collapse onto the surface of the inner eggshell. This collapse also must obey simple math. The surface area of the outer shell is greater than the inner shell and must buckle and crumple as it subsides onto the smaller area. Look at a global map of topography showing mountain ranges on land and undersea. Many of these faults/fractures are where the fountains of the deep are in Genesis7. The flat low lying areas like plains, seabeds were the hydraulic piston forcing the water to the faults and fractures then up out and onto the earth. If you flatten the earth all the water out there now would cover our heads by more than a mile.
The Egyptians came after the flood. Yes the pyramids went through the flood and post flood societies gather around these monuments today. Strange how the sphinx has water erosion and the Great Pyramid in its internal passages tells the story of the Redeemer (Jesus) and His people.
Ice cores in Greenland? This helps to explain the windows of heaven in Genesis 7. Look at Genesis 1:6-7 There was water below the earth and above the earth. This frozen canopy of water at the edge of our atmosphere is what fell to earth when "the windows of heaven were opened". (yes chicken little the sky is falling) So suddenly the mist under this canopy is exposed to the cold edges of space and turns to rain and snow. Greenland and the poles are areas that still exist today where the snow and ice accumulated and is still melting today. There will be no sediment in the ice because it landed over a 150 day period. Not millions of years.

seven (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How did all the animals get to their places after the flood? They walked of course or flew. As the valleys fell and the mountains raised, the water collected in low areas. Many land bridges were available to the Americas, Australia, various islands and the animals and people spread out. You know family visits stink after three days, imagine being on the same cruise ship for a year. hmph! So they spread out and multiplied and got to all these islands and places that favored their particular kind and later species. Don't forget all the ice and snow that fell out of the sky its still melting and sea levels are rising cutting off land bridges not just to north America but also Indonesia, Australia etc. That also explains strange structures and roads just off the coasts of some nations under water. They were built post flood but before the ice melt cut off land bridges.
The last argument on recessive traits, DNA, genetics is simple. G-d made the original document Adam and beautiful bride Eve along with all the creatures in the earth, plants too!
Then they all went forth and multiplied (Stick the original document in the copier and copy away). Then we listened to the devil and so we threw away the original document. We said "the devils right "we can be like gods" We then took the copies we made and made a copy of a copy. Then we made a copy of that copy, on and on. How does this fit in? Adam and Eve were perfect genetic documents and the first couple of copies we made were pretty good. The flood being roughly 1500 years from Adam there would not be enough genetic defects to run afoul of inbreeding problems with only two mating pairs. Even today my good ol'e public school taught me that for a space colony on Mars or the moon only 250-350 diverse people would be needed to maintain genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding. Not bad for only 4500 years between us and the flood.
Since were talking genetics what if we eventually clone a person and that baby grows and attends public school. Then later on that child goes to biology class and is taught evolution. In class the child raises there hand and asks the teacher "Did I evolve or was I created?"

Hey what about the heavens? Did you know that the Bible is written in the sky? The stars and their constellations proclaim the glory of G-d! Thanks to reading Jimmy Westlake's sunday articles on astronomy and the stories to the stars I've started to develop a keen interest in Orion, Sirius, Hydra etc. As I dig deeper and clean off the dirt the world has covered this area of the Bible with I realize G-d has given his evidence to the whole world. Why is it that many ancient cultures built temples on hill tops with starcharts included? They were tracking G-d's prophecies declared in the heavens!

armchairqb (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Now I know what they mean by the old saying "you can't argue politics or religion" And if anyone is keeping track
it's accepted and not excepted.

seven (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hunter
Ball is in your court on freewill awaiting your return.

Dead Sea Scrolls were just one of the many pieces of evidence I cited to you.

Katrina happened the same week as Israel was forced to vacate Gaza.

Carbon dating has huge failure rates. Nobody reports them they just keep running the tests until an agreeable result is spit out. No one tells you about the day old dead seal carbon dated over a thousand years?

I enjoyed your diatribe on atmospheric pressures. It helps one to understand how people in the preflood earth lived so long. You are aware of the long term benefits of using the bariatric chamber to help the body heal.

What is JW Christianity? I've never heard that one.

Somewhere G-d said that in becoming wise they became fools.

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 9:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Come on Hunterdog, everyone knows that god placed all of these fossil records and contradictory stuff around as false props to test our faith. In fact, I think you must be one of them.
Oh yes and one more thing, if god smotes those that mess with Israel, why do we need to pray for Israel as the original commentator suggested? Must have something to do with god's free will.
Now as for those bananas, should they be blended with any one of god's fine spirits or do you want them straight up?
Damn dirty apes...

seven (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 11:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What local evidence again says He is real?
-K-Love radio and Air One locally. Try for yourself playing it one hour and write down how the strange anointing brings on a feeling of goodwill and peace.Then sample satanic music and write down and notice how the core of you really feels.
-Also locally Skyangel.com is available 14.00 mo.? thru Dish T.V.. Has most all religions to sample. Jewish,Catholic, Lutheran,Latter Day Saints(Morman),7th Day Adventist, Christian, Baptist and many others. Has family progams and various languages of music. Sample life do not be stagnant,we are all Bro/Sis.
Did Jesus leave any physical evidence behind for us?Yes. Said I leave the Holy Spirit to comfort you. For those that know him its usually discribed as chills that start or warmness. Euphoria of love for all thats not earthly. Sometimes comes as a tear of joy for those that do not yet know him while listening to singing or words said about Him .
Where's the proof miracles and Divine healing happen today?
Locally watch Benny Hinn. Visit all the various Churches and Synagogues easy to see for yourself and not hearsay.
Why are religious folks blasted as ignorant?
G-d said that they become like little children(The Kings Kids). This is because they are clay in the Potters hands.Notice the next time how full of glee they are. Giddy, shocked at how they love others so much,cannot hardly believe totally all of their sins are removed forever. Some of their words heard are "theres no high like the Most High". To the world they seem like fools because by choice the veil of knowledge only starts to raise for those that except him into their hearts and not those who reject him.
Who can come to the Father? He said whosoever. Don't let those around you rob what is freely yours. Unfortunately some are teaching those with certain lifestyles they are not allowed. This in return has caused those precious folks to feel they have no worth. So in return they attack anything religious. Bro/Sis Come as you are. You are no less loved. He created each of us equally. He alone works with us in forming all of us in His image.

Something that gives me great comfort is He promised to never leave or forsake us.I can say for fact this is the truth.

Hadleyburg_Press (anonymous)
February 9, 2008 at 11:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I used to cry euphorically when I watched Benny Hill. Does that count?

bloggyblog (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

upon returning home from skiing, blog had a message from sister mary ellen moffat(one of blogs grade school instructors). she said blogs 'posts' were disturbing and insisted blog come straight down to the convent to see her. she made blog write "i will not talk like a heretic" 100 times on the blackboard, all the while wailing on blog with a ruler. ouch!! she also said blog should leave the political and religious debates to smart people and stick to things blogs little pea brain can understand, like skiing or eating bacon. so blogs off to ski in the sunshine and until the pilot writes an article on the merits of bacon... blogs out.

ColoradoNative (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

How about this. Please pray for America. We're in massive debt yet we ship more of our American tax dollars to Jerusalem/Israel than any other nation. What has Jerusalem done for us lately?

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sheesh, I don't come here often enough to keep up with the shifting conversations.
freshair- It appears you did not understand my allusion. Google "Russell's teapot" and read up on it, please. When you understand the allegory, then get back to me.

kielbasa- "God created science and physics to keep humankind's curiosity occupied. Disprove it. Just as I can't prove God exists, neither can you, based on that theory, disprove it."
It seems to me that the word "theory" gets bandied about pretty often, but not everyone understands it. A theory (in the scientific sense) is a logical framework for understanding observed phenomena. Claiming "god" did anything at all is not a theory, because it isn't testable. In that sense, it isn't even a hypothesis, as it's impossible to evaluate the merit of the claim. As far as the "Big Bang" goes, asking what came before it is pretty much the same as asking what lies north of the North Pole. Time and space did not exist (for anything to happen within) before the Big Bang; therefore, it's a meaningless question. And asking what caused it is also meaningless, as causality is an attribute of time.

As far as categorizing me thus: "The strident denial of possibility of a Cosmic Creator, besides signalling[sic] an inability to think out-of-the-box, is also the epitome of someone firmly trapped by conventional attitudes", I'll reiterate that I believed in a god for over twenty years. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. It was thinking *outside* that box that enabled me to break free of the "conventional attitudes" of our society's faith in a god. Your logic is rather twisted if you believe atheists to be narrow-minded. Trust me on that; I was a good little Christian for a very long time... I *know* what narrow-mindedness is.

JazzSlave- Your reference to parthenogenesis is irrelevant to the Christian myth of a virgin birth. Had it even been possible for Mary to have done so (which has never been observed naturally in any mammals), Joshua (the English form of Hebraic "Yeshua", a common name for which "Jesus" is the Greek translation) would've been a female, anyway.

As for seven's posts... wow. Just... wow. Talk about the holes in someone's logic. There are so many scientific errors in that, I'm rather in Hunterdog's position... where to start? Meh... I'm not even going to bother. I will note, however, that your feelings when listening to Christian music does not constitute "physical evidence" that the music's lyrics are valid. If there were mile-high letters on the moon saying "Jesus was here", that might be physical evidence.

I do concur with sbvor on this, though. When quoting someone else verbatim, it *is* proper to state your sources.

freshair (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The adamant belief or lack of belief in a Superior Cosmic Creative Intelligence without acknowledging the possibility that either or none could be correct, is the hallmark of Conventional thinking. So Hunter, that dog of yours won't hunt. By going from belief to non-belief, you have simply moved 180 degrees in the same enclosed circle. You need to step outside the circle.

freshair (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

While we're on the subject of Relativity and Einstein, it is interesting to know what he thought about creation. Einstein recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. He firmly denied atheism and believed in a Creator who, in his own words, "reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." Einstein's famous statement on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice", and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

freshair- I think you've confused me with Hunterdog, though we share the same viewpoint. I understand your (and kielbasa's) position. I really do. You're both agnostic, leaning towards deism (the belief in a sort of Grand Engineer, who set up the laws of the universe and is just letting them play out). Agnosticism was particularly attractive to me when I first began questioning my religious views. It held out at least a hope for there to be a Creator, and an afterlife, and that there was some grand purpose for my (and everyone else's) existence. But I suppose I'm too rational for that viewpoint to stick. There just isn't any empirical evidence for a deity and I can't believe in the objective existence of something for which there is no objective evidence.

kielbasa- Please note that I used the term theory "in the scientific sense." The dictionary does not precisely give a definitive take on words... it gives their usage. People misuse words all the time, but in this case (the scientific sense) the word "theory" is very specific. As per Wiki, "In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation, and general relativity." A statement about whether a deity does anything is not testable. Therefore, it's not a theory (or hypothesis). A statement about whether an apple will fall when dropped is testable. When you understand what I mean by "theory" then you'll find your argument for a deity theory doesn't hold up.

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 2:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As for the "Missing Link", I believe you're making a "God of the Gaps" argument. Essentially, that's an argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Because scientists haven't yet found the shared ancestor of modern apes and man, your argument is that there isn't one. Unfortunately for you, though the fossils haven't yet been found, the 1.5% difference in DNA between humans and chimpanzees weighs against your argument.

As far as Jules Verne goes, I've read "From the Earth to the Moon" and he never tried to claim a god transports his astronauts there; he also did not use jet propulsion. He used known scientific principles of his day (gunpowder explosives, cannon, muzzle velocity, etc.) to form the underlying premise: an enormous cannon shoots a giant hollow bullet with people in it to the moon. Likewise, space travel today does not require a deity for its operations. In addition to this, thinkers from past generations have always speculated on what might be possible (Leonardi da Vinci's helicopter, for instance). None of their proposed ideas have required a deity for them to work.

"And the Theory of Relativity: it's still a theory overall, almost a century later. It's been tested but still not proven. Does that negate it also?" It seems you still don't understand what a scientific theory *is* and I'm not sure how else to try explaining it to you.

Jay_K (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

freshair- You want to trade Einstein quotes? Try these:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"[The sense of] a spirit manifest in the laws of the Universe... does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image--a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being."

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure of the former."

When asked if religion promotes peace: "It has not done so up to now."

freshair (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jay-K, anyone who understands anything of what Einstein wrote and said on the subject of a Creator, knows that while he did not believe in a 'personal' god, his referencing to 'god' in all of his published writings always refers to a Cosmic Creative Force. Not the anthropomorphic creation but the more non-specific and ethereal Formless and Nameless Cosmic Creative Intelligence.

armchairqb (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I thought someone once said Everything you'll ever need to know was learned in Kindergarten . They didn't teach this stuff at the 1/2 day kindergarten I went to . Maybe I missed out , where do you guys get this stuff.???

mcminsteamboat (anonymous)
February 10, 2008 at 10:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In the vociferous debate above about belief in God, the Bible and religion, or the absence thereof, I fear that two glaring issues arising from the Hustons' letter have been ignored:
1) Their view of peace in the Middle East provides only for a win/lose scenario whereby Israel is considered the only deserving winner and everyone else loses.
2) They apply a "fire and brimstone" religious faith to justify their negative position, but they do not represent the majority of "people of faith" who believe in a merciful and peace-loving God, not in invoking God's name to condone inequality and conquest.
I do not believe there will be peace in the Middle East as long as Israel holds all the cards, until Israel recognises that the Palestinians have the right to a compassionate and just solution, and until a deal where there is a win for every party is negotiated.
I am originally from Lebanon and I look forward to the day when all the countries of the Middle East can celebrate the common elements of their history, culture and religion in peace and can share in the potential prosperity of this ancient and beautiful part of the world. I don't have the blueprint for achieving this ambitious goal but I remain hopeful that it will happen in my lifetime.

freshair (anonymous)
February 11, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

mcminsteamboat, keep in mind, if the arabs at any point since 1948 'held all the cards', there wouldn't be an Israel. When your country is under constant attack as the Israelis have been for the past 60 years you are forced to adopt security measures. The fact is the arabs have steadfastly refused to accept the right of the jewish people to re-establish a nation in the ancient homeland. This is rooted entirely in the muslim idea of the entire Middle East as the Dar al Islam, Lands of Islam, whereby it is mandated in their religion that only muslim